Thanks for your suggestions I'm hoping to get some time to try and trace the wiring this weekend.
I need to work out how the batteries have been wired through the changeover switch and look for corrosion- does anyone know how the fuses come out ?? The fuses are in a little panel with switches that glow red when on.
I did charge each battery separately 'cos I wasn't sure of the best way to do it so I got that bit right.
You might wonder why I've made another post under this one started in 2019 ? Well being quite bored by the Tier 4 lockdown I started thinking about the things I wanted to do on ASHANTI before the season starts hopefully in early Spring.
In the last week just before laying up ASHANTI one of my batteries was obviously on its last legs the voltage was down, and despite charging it would not come up. I decided it would need to be replaced in the Spring. I remember Roly telling me that he had a diode and/or voltage sensitive relay on his boat so I started googling and found that the Blue Sea Mini Add a Battery Kit was highly recommended. I then started going through the Forum's technical posts to see what else I could find out about upgrading my battery system and came across this series of posts I started almost 2 years ago to the day !!
It had started being about battery types but ended with my problems with my Garmin chart plotter cutting out and my work to find out why. In my last post above I said that I would let you know how I got on - well I didn't !! What happened was I solve the problem and promptly forgot.
Well after almost 2 days of blowing fuses and a lot of swearing I finally found where the poor connection was - it was the rocker switch on the fuse board. I went looking in our Chandlers for a replacement switch and found that the whole switch/fuseboard cost under £20 so I replaced the lot - problem solved.
However, it did not stop my Garmin cutting out on occasions when I started the engine - I guess down to a voltage drop - this brings me to the point, I have a starter and house battery on ASHANTI and a four position switch - OFF/1/2/BOTH and as I have never been sure what the outboard charges in the various ON positions I mostly have it set on BOTH when the engine is running.
As I intend to replace at least one battery it seems like a good time to update the switch and fit an automatic charging relay - any advice on this would be most appreciated.
As I said before, I have a voltage sensitive relay that links my two batteries which means that the starter battery always gets topped up first and only when that's good does the gate open to the house battery. I do also have a diode splitter at that point which means I can suck off current to my fridge when the motor is running without fear that it will continue to drain house battery when engine turned off. I use my 4 position switch to denote which battery the house is running from or to join both batteries together if needed. Cables from motor go direct to starter battery via isolator switch.
This system seems to work well for me. I have a separate 10amp marine grade charger that plugs into my shore power box and that goes to the starter battery first. Fridge runs direct from shore power when that is plugged in .
I also use a VSR (voltage sensitive relay), and I don't have any other switches for isolating batteries. Outboards are designed to be permanently connected to their starter battery, and the alternator can be damaged if the battery is disconnected while running. I prefer to be safe and not have any switch in between!
Most VSRs are bi-directional, so you can connect your shore-power (and wind or solar charger if you have one) to the house battery, and when the house is charged it will fall-over to top up the starter battery. I prefer this configuration as the house battery is your primary battery when moored, and you've probably just charged the starter battery by motoring to the mooring. It's also likely to be easier to wire up.
Some VSRs have a contact that you can wire to a switch (or ideally a push-button) which will manually link the batteries. This can be handy to provide a starter boost if needed. You do of course have to ensure the house battery is connected to the VSR with starter grade cable, otherwise the house battery won't be able to deliver any useful current. If you don't use the feature you only need cable thick enough to carry the charging current.
This arrangement is completely hands-off, once it's installed it just works and you don't ever have to mess with any switches!
—
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
That Blue Sea gadget seems over-complicated and somewhat expensive as well. A Victron 120A VSR is only about £40. It rather depends how fixated you are on having a big red ON-OFF switch. Personally I don't see the need. If you've got a switch/fuse panel to control all the house circuits, meaning you can switch everything off that way, I don't see the purpose of another big switch to isolate the batteries.
As I said earlier, outboards are designed to be permanently connected, and if for example you keep the boat plugged in to shore/garage power, or have solar panels or a wind generator to keep the batteries topped up when not being used, you can't isolate the batteries anyway.
The difference between my and Roly's setup re. mains charging is a matter of preference, I feel it's best to charge the house battery as priority, Roly prefers to prioritise the starter - there's no right or wrong!
I'll try to find or draw a circuit showing how I use the Victron VSR. It's a very compact device, about the size of a typical car relay. Mine fits inside the battery box that houses my starter battery.
—
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
It covers the 120A & 230A versions - 120A is more than adequate for our boats. The 2nd page has wiring diagrams, the top one is for the 120A device, and is exactly how my boat is wired. "Alternator/starter" on the left is essentially the outboard, and the big blue square on the right can be taken as the switch panel for the house circuits.
The batteries are not linked by default, the VSR only links them when either is being charged and full voltage (about 13.5V) is reached.
The "start assist" connection is the optional push-button for linking the batteries if needed when starting. I had this setup on my 26X, with the button installed on the console, and it turned out to be handy once or twice. I haven't bothered on my 19, partly because I'd have to pull a pair of heavy cables below the aft berth, but also my 30HP motor can be hand-pull started anyway.
For me this setup is hard to beat, because
a) Low cost
b) Compact
c) Simple to wire up
d) No switches to mess with
You can connect your shore power charger to the house or starter according to your preference, but either way it will charge both batteries once the one it is connected to has reached full voltage.
I hope that helps, and hasn't made you more confused!
—
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
Hi All,
Thanks for your suggestions I'm hoping to get some time to try and trace the wiring this weekend.
I need to work out how the batteries have been wired through the changeover switch and look for corrosion- does anyone know how the fuses come out ?? The fuses are in a little panel with switches that glow red when on.
I did charge each battery separately 'cos I wasn't sure of the best way to do it so I got that bit right.
I'll keep you posted of how I get on.
Regards,
JOHN
ASHANTI 2008M
Hi All,
Happy New Year
You might wonder why I've made another post under this one started in 2019 ? Well being quite bored by the Tier 4 lockdown I started thinking about the things I wanted to do on ASHANTI before the season starts hopefully in early Spring.
In the last week just before laying up ASHANTI one of my batteries was obviously on its last legs the voltage was down, and despite charging it would not come up. I decided it would need to be replaced in the Spring. I remember Roly telling me that he had a diode and/or voltage sensitive relay on his boat so I started googling and found that the Blue Sea Mini Add a Battery Kit was highly recommended. I then started going through the Forum's technical posts to see what else I could find out about upgrading my battery system and came across this series of posts I started almost 2 years ago to the day !!
It had started being about battery types but ended with my problems with my Garmin chart plotter cutting out and my work to find out why. In my last post above I said that I would let you know how I got on - well I didn't !! What happened was I solve the problem and promptly forgot.
Well after almost 2 days of blowing fuses and a lot of swearing I finally found where the poor connection was - it was the rocker switch on the fuse board. I went looking in our Chandlers for a replacement switch and found that the whole switch/fuseboard cost under £20 so I replaced the lot - problem solved.
However, it did not stop my Garmin cutting out on occasions when I started the engine - I guess down to a voltage drop - this brings me to the point, I have a starter and house battery on ASHANTI and a four position switch - OFF/1/2/BOTH and as I have never been sure what the outboard charges in the various ON positions I mostly have it set on BOTH when the engine is running.
As I intend to replace at least one battery it seems like a good time to update the switch and fit an automatic charging relay - any advice on this would be most appreciated.
Hi John, a Better New Year to you and All.
As I said before, I have a voltage sensitive relay that links my two batteries which means that the starter battery always gets topped up first and only when that's good does the gate open to the house battery. I do also have a diode splitter at that point which means I can suck off current to my fridge when the motor is running without fear that it will continue to drain house battery when engine turned off. I use my 4 position switch to denote which battery the house is running from or to join both batteries together if needed. Cables from motor go direct to starter battery via isolator switch.
This system seems to work well for me. I have a separate 10amp marine grade charger that plugs into my shore power box and that goes to the starter battery first. Fridge runs direct from shore power when that is plugged in .
Have fun.....Roly
Hi John
Happy New Year!
I also use a VSR (voltage sensitive relay), and I don't have any other switches for isolating batteries. Outboards are designed to be permanently connected to their starter battery, and the alternator can be damaged if the battery is disconnected while running. I prefer to be safe and not have any switch in between!
Most VSRs are bi-directional, so you can connect your shore-power (and wind or solar charger if you have one) to the house battery, and when the house is charged it will fall-over to top up the starter battery. I prefer this configuration as the house battery is your primary battery when moored, and you've probably just charged the starter battery by motoring to the mooring. It's also likely to be easier to wire up.
Some VSRs have a contact that you can wire to a switch (or ideally a push-button) which will manually link the batteries. This can be handy to provide a starter boost if needed. You do of course have to ensure the house battery is connected to the VSR with starter grade cable, otherwise the house battery won't be able to deliver any useful current. If you don't use the feature you only need cable thick enough to carry the charging current.
This arrangement is completely hands-off, once it's installed it just works and you don't ever have to mess with any switches!
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
I couldn't remember the actual VSR I use when I posted above, but now I remember it's a Victron Cyrix. Can be found here:
https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/victron-cyrix-ct-voltage-sensitive-relay-...
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
Hi R&R,
Many thanks for your posts but I’m still a bit confused.
I’ve been looking at Blue Sea Systems mini ACR Kit which was recommended by PBO in Jan 2016
The kit comes with a new battery switch and an automatic ACR http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990310020.pdf
The selling points are that the ACR
Automatically combines batteries during charging, isolates when discharging
Allows temporary isolation of house loads from engine circuit during cranking to protect sensitive equipment.
Under & over voltage lockout
The switch - Switches two battery banks simultaneously while maintaining battery bank isolation minimising risk of dead battery
Has a combine battery position to parallel in the event of a low battery.
From your posts it seems that:-
Roly’s system charges starter first then house
Ricks starter is direct from alternator, house first from other source then starter.
Blue Sea both at same time from alternator.
Can you see why I’m puzzled ? Am I missing something or just being thick ?
Thanks & Regards,
Hi John
That Blue Sea gadget seems over-complicated and somewhat expensive as well. A Victron 120A VSR is only about £40. It rather depends how fixated you are on having a big red ON-OFF switch. Personally I don't see the need. If you've got a switch/fuse panel to control all the house circuits, meaning you can switch everything off that way, I don't see the purpose of another big switch to isolate the batteries.
As I said earlier, outboards are designed to be permanently connected, and if for example you keep the boat plugged in to shore/garage power, or have solar panels or a wind generator to keep the batteries topped up when not being used, you can't isolate the batteries anyway.
The difference between my and Roly's setup re. mains charging is a matter of preference, I feel it's best to charge the house battery as priority, Roly prefers to prioritise the starter - there's no right or wrong!
I'll try to find or draw a circuit showing how I use the Victron VSR. It's a very compact device, about the size of a typical car relay. Mine fits inside the battery box that houses my starter battery.
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
This is Victron's data sheet: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Cyrix-ct-120A-2...
It covers the 120A & 230A versions - 120A is more than adequate for our boats. The 2nd page has wiring diagrams, the top one is for the 120A device, and is exactly how my boat is wired. "Alternator/starter" on the left is essentially the outboard, and the big blue square on the right can be taken as the switch panel for the house circuits.
The batteries are not linked by default, the VSR only links them when either is being charged and full voltage (about 13.5V) is reached.
The "start assist" connection is the optional push-button for linking the batteries if needed when starting. I had this setup on my 26X, with the button installed on the console, and it turned out to be handy once or twice. I haven't bothered on my 19, partly because I'd have to pull a pair of heavy cables below the aft berth, but also my 30HP motor can be hand-pull started anyway.
For me this setup is hard to beat, because
a) Low cost
b) Compact
c) Simple to wire up
d) No switches to mess with
You can connect your shore power charger to the house or starter according to your preference, but either way it will charge both batteries once the one it is connected to has reached full voltage.
I hope that helps, and hasn't made you more confused!
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
In my psychoanalyst's role, I am dying to know how fixated John is about having a big red on/off switch.....
Quentin Sands, past owner
1991 26C Mrs MacGregor
1993 Mac19, Margarita
Hi Quentin,
I think you have just invented a new "Agony Aunt" or should it be "Uncle"section for your next the MacGregor Sailor publication.
Confused of the Medway
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