Submitted by simon.armitage on
Original forum:
- Member Discussions:General Discussion
I am probably late to the pass as usual but have just read an article explaining why boats with a single engine and twin rudders are less manoeuvrable moving forward at slow speeds.
When turning hard a port or starboard to berth alongside the pontoon by inclination I always push the throttle forwards a tad to increase speed and help turn the boat .
It seems that the science is that the wash from the propeller is moving clear astern rather than washing over the rudders while with a single rudder it washes over it giving it a grip to improve steering at low speeds.
I hope any of you are enjoying our new found freedom and others are enjoyed the holiday to catch up on prep for launching.
Simn Armitage
Sowenna 26 M
18 Comments
Re manouvering at slow speed
Submitted by david.phillips on
Re manouvering at slow speed , with engine engaged you have a bit of extra help.
I would suggest that the
Submitted by chris.harnan on
I would suggest that the article is primarily about fixed props (i.e. inboard engines) with twin rudders. This is very different to twin rudders with an outboard where the prop can turn. I fully agree that the rudders at low speed will have little effect with either type of engine.
There are many motor boats out there with only an outboard.
Keeping the drop keel down (when water depth allows) has IMHO a far greater effect in improving low speed handling as it help to stop sideways movement, especially sidewind induced.
Kind regards Chris
The worst thing you can do is
Submitted by david.phillips on
The worst thing you can do is have no keel down. This has happened to me a few times leaving dock and finding it won't steer !
In high winds, going
Submitted by chris.harnan on
In high winds, going alongside in reverse can often be easier as the bow will follow the stern.
Chris
I think recommendation is to
Submitted by roly.simpson on
I think recommendation is to give short bursts of throttle to generate some speed to make rudders work but then minimize the rearward wash that will push boat forwards. Rudder turning is a bit limited on the Mac and on the M especially in one direction unless modified.
I find that treating it like
Submitted by david.bayliss on
I find that treating it like a powerboat in close quarters normally keeps me out of trouble. You cant always trust setting it up like a conventional yacht due to the lack of weight and for a 26ft boat the Mac has significant windage. I keep my keel half up and both rudders down and use the old trick of coasting into the berth at a slow speed at an angle of around 20 to 30 degrees if room permits, and just at the last moment putting her into astern and turning towards the quay to pull the stern in. Hope this helps and there are a couple of RYA videos on youtube that show this technique really well.
Regards
David Bayliss (Mac 26X Marmite)
We obviously differ about
Submitted by chris.harnan on
We obviously differ about having the keel down. How do all other fixed keel sailing boats manage to steer? Could somebody cleverer than me explain why pivoting around a point of lateral resistance hinders steering?
Kind regards Chris
I think everyone's agreed
Submitted by rick.jones on
I think everyone's agreed that at least some keel-board is required, there are different opinions as to how much. My feeling is that at manoeurering speeds the difference between half and full board is probably not significant. Not putting the board full down is wise if you're not sure of the depth at the berth, which may be why it's many people's preference.
As a 19 owner I can testify to the lack of steering control with twin rudders and a non-steering engine. This was the configuration the 19 was originally designed to use, but is a nightmare in practice (especially in reverse)! Like many 19 owners I have arranged my engine to steer, it just takes a bit of invention to link the engine to the tiller.
I can quickly link or un-link the engine steering, and at cruising speed (5+ kts) steering becomes more comfortable with just the rudders and the engine straight, but for low speed you need the engine to steer. You can in fact steer on the engine and leave the rudders straight - when dead slow the engine overrides.
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
I damaged my Mac 26 X the
Submitted by david.phillips on
I damaged my Mac 26 X the first time I launched it at Leverington marina,windy and no keel down,bent the cockpit railings and difficult to straighten which I never did.
I agree with those that say
Submitted by mike.clarke on
I agree with those that say you need the dagger board down - the original 26M instruction manual actually warns you not to attempt close quarters manoeuvres without the dagger board at least half down. I have tested the turning circle at different dagger board depths adn agree with Rick that after its 1/2 down there isn't a lot of difference except that if its windy you need it fully down if possible to avoid leeway. We have a tight space in Tollesbury marina and we can't make the turn into our berth with anything less than half the dagger board down and it has to be fully down if there is any windage at all.
When we first got her I made the mistake of trying to steer without dagger board and its just not possible as the helm is just overpowered by the forward pitch of the propeller even with the motor turning - the hull just doesn't have any grip on the water. even at low speeds. A shame I hadn't read the instructions properly! The 50 HP Yamaha high torque motor doesn't actually go particularly slow when in gear as we make at least 3 knots with the engine in gear even at the lowest throttle setting. I often hae to coast and steer into tight moorings.
Mike C - Tarka 26M
Totally agree with Mike. It's
Submitted by david.claassen on
Totally agree with Mike. It's a doddle to come into a mooring with wind or tide holding you on, or even a wind on the nose. I do a lot of single handed moorings and have a lot more trouble with a wind off the stern. Coming in whilst being blown off the pontoon requires a faster approach. There are times when the best option is to fender both sides, let her get (gently) blown against your neighbour, then bring her over from the dock. Mid cleats or having a line fastened to bow and stern cleats are very handy as well.
David Claassen
"Logan's Run"
2006 26M
I would firstly like to offer
Submitted by chris.harnan on
I would firstly like to offer humble apologies to David as my response was based on thinking he was suggesting no keel down was best but I misread his comment and he was saying exactly the opposite - apologies again.
There is rightly agreement that having some or all keel down is essential.
I think the discussion needs to be opened out as at the moment it is all about how to steer a boat which is the easy bit. The 3 factors which are most important in my view are:
1. Wind strength and direction
2. Current speed and direction
3. Available pontoon length
Only by assessing all those in advance is there any chance of getting it right. Having a single set method will never work. The key is to make a decision quickly but a trial approach (where possible) and then a 'go-around' increases the time to assess and decide.
As an example, in a strong wind blowing directly onto a pontoon, 'normal' methods of approaching at 30 degrees and then giving a blast astern will work fine albeit probably at the expense of the gel coat up forward. Trying to do the same in a strong wind blowing off the pontoon in a Mac will rarely work - in this case the only way to get alongside under control is to back up to the pontoon, drop off a crew member from the stern with bow and stern line and immediately secure the stern line. There is then plenty of time to get the bow onto the pontoon either under engine or using warps.
Chris
I laid a length of old
Submitted by simon.armitage on
I laid a length of old mooring warp alongside my pontoon which gives us something for tne boathook to grab hold of, either from the cockpit or bow. Given the high freeboard (and my short legs), being able to grip onto something is a positive and gives me time to get more organised. Of course getting near enough to the pontoon is an effort in dirty weather and Chris's advice is very wise.
I had a lot of fun trying to moor, Greek Style, a 45 foot Bavaria in a crowded Gaios, Paxos in high winds and rain and ended up dropping anchor outside the harbour. While we were ashore the storm strengthened and it was dangerous to use our tender to get back so hired a water taxi which picked up the tender and after a wet and bumpy ride we got back to our boat for a lumpy night.
Keep safe and good sailing
Simon Armitage
Sowenna 26M
A very interesting thread.
Submitted by stuart.mcwilliam on
A very interesting thread.
My 26X's close quarters manoeuvring has been improved greatly by the addition of porpoise 'wings' to the outboard and a large rudder that is actually attached to the engine and projects behind the propeller. This arrangement means that there is wash over the added rudder whenever the prop is turning. Mine cost £150, but it could easily be fabricated at home. Details of mine at safeboat.co.uk. I'll try to remember to take a pic and post it here.
Spent an idyllic afternoon on and around the Hamble today. All systems seem 'go' after the Winter lay off with only a few niggles to sort (famous last words)......
Very best wishes to all,
Stu
Why do I keep getting
Submitted by david.phillips on
Why do I keep getting postings with no added content ?
Hi David
Submitted by rick.jones on
Hi David
Are you talking about the emails notifying you of new content? The first link takes you to the start of the topic (so always the same). Further down, the link under "Replies" takes you to the new comment.
If there's been a lot of activity, one email can contain links to more than one item.
Does that help? Let me know if not.
Rick Jones (Treasurer), former 26X & 19 owner, Isle of Wight
Sometimes the forums can play
Submitted by roly.simpson on
Sometimes the forums can play tricks on you....I'm puzzled that quite often I post something but it doesn't show up....Maybe there are so many embarrassing predictive text errors that it is auto exited out!
Anyway, earlier I posted that it seemed to me that if depth allowed always have foils fully down when manojvering at slow speed. In marinas etc. If anything I would expect that if half up, the hinging centre board of the x would cause the pivot point to be more to stern and also lengthened making it less effective.
Remember that tidal generally trumps wind for causing muckups.
The only exception to this is when you want to make use of shallow draft and allow the whole boat to swing out of pontoon such as when using bow spring followed by reverse pivot method to get off against adverse wind and/or tide.
Generally short bursts of power forward or a stern allow best turning with less directional travel and alternating fore and aft with quick reversing of outboard direction can allow thrust to cancel out and boat to spin on the spot.
Two other useful tips I learned from power boat course are Ferry Gliding , and utilising a gentle side wind to blow boat onto the pontoon ( sometimes small pivot adjustments required).
Always take time to plan it and never wing it. Bravado breaks boats!
Lastly, go slow and don't be afraid to land crew onto pontoon or other boats so they can take lines etc. All decent yachtmen will also want to help , if only to save their boats!
Hope this helps., Roly
Hi everyone This is one of
Submitted by ian.crosby on
Hi everyone This is one of the most interesting threads i've seen and i can confirm after a couple of early visits into trees when trying powerboat turns on the river bure, that full plate and rudders down is the only way to do tight turns in a 26x. Our mooring is in a 28ft wide dyke off the main river, with 2 90' turns, so manouvering without hitting the neighbours is a social necessity. We also have to get into very tight spaces on various moorings around the broads so any advice regards this is gratefully accepted. Getting in is normally OK, using David's method of coasting in and a burst of reverse engine with the steering spun to pull the stern in, or even Chris's reverse in and jump off with the bow rope already back to the cockpit if single handed. But one comment from Roly has intrigued me, because getting off from a lee mooring has been really difficult when there are 10' wide cruisers moored both sides, as the wind just pushes the bow back in. So we now haul the boat head to wind manually using the windward stern line, then power straight off the mooring.
So Roly, what do you mean by ' The only exception to this is when you want to make use of shallow draft and allow the whole boat to swing out of pontoon such as when using bow spring followed by reverse pivot method to get off against adverse wind and/or tide.' I'm assuming this is to use both stern mooring ropes to pull the boat stern on to the pontoon/mooring as i said above, and therefore head to wind, and in that case you want as least underwater resistance as possible?. But i don't understand the bow spring bit? Anyway, any more info gratefully received, especially if its less hard work!
Ian AQUILA 26X